tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post114331797319126163..comments2024-02-21T03:20:21.898-08:00Comments on An Inch At A Time: Reflections on the Journey: A Proclamation for the Episcopal ChurchSUSAN RUSSELLhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1151091269894619132006-06-23T12:34:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:34:00.000-07:00You sayd that you have a "a firm commitment to cla...You sayd that you have a "a firm commitment to classic Anglicanism." That is just rubbish. Really. Just say that you are progressive. That is the honourable thing to do. You just do not have any such firm commitment: your theology, anthropology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, let's see, what else? . .. is all a departure from classical Anglicanism. Better to admit it than claim the tradition as Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145845055576675302006-04-23T19:17:00.000-07:002006-04-23T19:17:00.000-07:00I have found that the last eight to ten comments a...I have found that the last eight to ten comments are far more representative of the comments posted on the T19 threads. The first comments here were truly and horribly embarrassing but I have never seen anything on T19 that remotely approaches the cruelty, insensitivity and immaturity of these comments.<BR/>Furthermore, while I disagree with your positions Susan, I have never, ever spoken with Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1144101780598062862006-04-03T15:03:00.000-07:002006-04-03T15:03:00.000-07:00Laura,I'm sorry that you find this a matter for co...Laura,<BR/>I'm sorry that you find this a matter for concern. It is one of the things that separates classical Anglicans, Roman Catholics, and the Orthodox from the truly "protestant" or "reformed" churches. The authority of Scripture places limits on what the church can do, but it also places the interpretation of Scripture within the church's keeping. It also gives the church the freedom to Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1144032885128925182006-04-02T19:54:00.000-07:002006-04-02T19:54:00.000-07:00Tobias writes:"Finally, as a person in the Reforme...Tobias writes:<BR/>"Finally, as a person in the Reformed tradition I understand your point about the relationship between the church and Scripture. That is not the view held in Anglicanism, which holds that the Scripture is in the keeping of the Church, and that it is a product of the church (broadly understood as the people of God under both Covenants)."<BR/>I think of anything that I have read Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143828058767297552006-03-31T10:00:00.000-08:002006-03-31T10:00:00.000-08:00Hiram,If you could provide an example of how apply...Hiram,<BR/>If you could provide an example of how applying the hermeneutical tools described in Let the Reader Understand could lead to as heterodox understanding of any of the doctrines you describe it might help your argument. As it is you are simply making an assertion. As several of these doctrines are embedded in the principles themselves, I don't see how this would be possible.<BR/><BR/>As Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143770668981796862006-03-30T18:04:00.000-08:002006-03-30T18:04:00.000-08:00Tobias says, “I don't accept your ‘wax nose’ argum...Tobias says, “I don't accept your ‘wax nose’ argument -- that if one issue is assailable all must be assailable.”<BR/><BR/>What I am saying is that, if you apply the same principles of interpretation to other doctrines (the Trinity, the incarnation, the atonement, etc) as you use to get Scripture to support the goodness of homosexual sexual activity, then these other doctrines will falter. If Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143686799975311342006-03-29T18:46:00.000-08:002006-03-29T18:46:00.000-08:00Tobias,What the heck is circumstantial in or about...Tobias,<BR/><BR/>What the heck is circumstantial in or about 1 Corinthians 6:9.<BR/><BR/>And:<BR/><BR/>"All heresy and error usually (sic) comes about through an effort to be overly protective of a certain particular doctrine."<BR/><BR/>Incredible. Write that one on the barn wall.<BR/><BR/>Like I said - Animal Farm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143644226104477032006-03-29T06:57:00.000-08:002006-03-29T06:57:00.000-08:00Hiram,I don't accept your "wax nose" argument -- t...Hiram,<BR/>I don't accept your "wax nose" argument -- that if one issue is assailable all must be assailable. It is, however, clear that not all doctrines are necessarily well-developed in Scripture, and had to be evolved over time. The Trinity and the Incarnation, for example. Some doctrines, such as the Atonement, have never been given (in the Catholic wing of the Church, at least) a final formTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143640195201081372006-03-29T05:49:00.000-08:002006-03-29T05:49:00.000-08:00Jake, I did not say that substitutionary atonement...Jake, I did not say that substitutionary atonement was the only way to look at the work of the cross -- simply that it cannot be omitted.<BR/><BR/>The NT uses a variety of images to describe the cross and its significance. I have not read Abp Carey's "I Believe," but I do know that there are a number of ways the work of the cross has been described down through the centuries. What happened on Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143614338084554932006-03-28T22:38:00.000-08:002006-03-28T22:38:00.000-08:00Jake and Tobias,Try as you might, I cannot take se...Jake and Tobias,<BR/><BR/>Try as you might, I cannot take seriously your totally beside the point contest as to who can prove who is or who is not "orthodox".<BR/><BR/>To paraphrase what +Spong said after the last GC -the Rubicon has been crossed.<BR/><BR/>In case you didn't notice, we have awoke to the realization that ECUSA liberal tactics had changed.<BR/><BR/>The GC victors can and will just Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143595070386037092006-03-28T17:17:00.000-08:002006-03-28T17:17:00.000-08:00Hiram,Some day you may want to take a look at Geor...Hiram,<BR/><BR/>Some day you may want to take a look at George Carey's book "I Believe." He speaks of five different ways to view atonement. "Jesus as our example", or, if you prefer, "the pioneer of our faith" is one of the five.<BR/><BR/>To suggest that "ransom for sin" is the ONLY orthodox understanding would be to contradict Carey, whom most people consider quite "orthodox." <BR/><BR/>When Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579571802576738609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143588534684979862006-03-28T15:28:00.000-08:002006-03-28T15:28:00.000-08:00Tobias -- I know that T19 is now a moderated forum...Tobias -- I know that T19 is now a moderated forum -- but that has only been a few months. In the days before hand, there were occassional nasty comments posted, and, as I best remember, they were by reappraisers as often as they were by reasserters. And "beyond reconciliation" says that those who posted nasty things here are T19 posters -- how on earth does he know? I see no way to identify Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143586598096730132006-03-28T14:56:00.000-08:002006-03-28T14:56:00.000-08:00Chip,Yes, I was one of the contributing authors to...Chip,<BR/>Yes, I was one of the contributing authors to "Let the Reader Understand." I do know that some individuals have had trouble with this document, but most of their criticism is unfounded. LtRU is completely orthodox, and entirely based upon the Articles of Religion and the work of Richard Hooker. The only published review of it I'm aware of was in The Living Church -- hardly a liberal Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143579070975414502006-03-28T12:51:00.000-08:002006-03-28T12:51:00.000-08:00Father Haller,I apologize if I'm mistaking you for...Father Haller,<BR/><BR/>I apologize if I'm mistaking you for someone else, but weren't you involved with "Let the Reader Understand" from 2002 (if I remember the title correctly)? I bring this up because I'm sure you're aware that the paper presents a view of Scripture that the orthodox do not accept, and that view of Scripture seems to be very common in ECUSA today. In what sense, then, can the Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143575109944112012006-03-28T11:45:00.000-08:002006-03-28T11:45:00.000-08:00(Dave)I hope and I pray that most of the Platform ...(Dave)<BR/>I hope and I pray that most of the Platform you advocate is rejected but I also pray that God would reveal to their authors the ugliness expressed in these hateful posts. One of your members once told me that it is not possible to love the sin and hate the sinner. I didn't believe it then and I still don't. Since then, my views remain unchanged that sexual intimacy belongs only Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143567995190276832006-03-28T09:46:00.000-08:002006-03-28T09:46:00.000-08:00Sing it with me now"... And they'll know we are Ch...Sing it with me now<BR/><BR/>"... And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143567469347624642006-03-28T09:37:00.000-08:002006-03-28T09:37:00.000-08:00To all of those above who posted the contemptible,...To all of those above who posted the contemptible, mean spirited comments:<BR/>You can kick and scream all you want but eventually Gays & Lesbians will obtain their rights, not only the civil rights that we are entitled to as American citizens but also our rights/rites in the Episcopal Church. It is only a matter of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143560378266520302006-03-28T07:39:00.000-08:002006-03-28T07:39:00.000-08:00Thank you for your sharing of this proclamation. ...Thank you for your sharing of this proclamation. For me it is fully inspired by Jesus' images of the Kingdom. The season of Lent is upon us and those who abhor the proclamation are seemingly called to a different kind interior process than I am called. That we worship one God and have such different callings is a mystery to me. Unfortunately, I no longer find myself able to experience a senseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143558638345915662006-03-28T07:10:00.000-08:002006-03-28T07:10:00.000-08:00Hiram,T19 is a moderated site. That means that any...Hiram,<BR/>T19 is a moderated site. That means that any posting deemed offensive by the "elves" can be deleted; posters who regularly offend can automatically be screened from posting. However, even with this system in place sometimes a truly offensive message slips through. You may have missed them; I have seen them. (They usually get removed in quick order.) <I>This</I> site doesn't have the Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143551831312191172006-03-28T05:17:00.000-08:002006-03-28T05:17:00.000-08:00Beyond Reconciliation --Can you quote some of thos...Beyond Reconciliation --<BR/><BR/>Can you quote some of those horrendous postings from T19? I read it regularly, and while I have seen a few nasty comments from time to time there, these are hardly the norm. Of course, if you take any disagreement with the idea of total acceptance of homosexuality as an abusive comment, you could be right -- but to make the first few comments on this item Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143532032973265382006-03-27T23:47:00.000-08:002006-03-27T23:47:00.000-08:00I suspect those first few comments are children wi...I suspect those first few comments are children with too much time on their hands. I'd ban them anyway, for the greater good. If they get away with "drive by" posts, it will just encourage such anti-social behavior. <BR/><BR/>But, I do acknowledge your point about letting the world see such a blatant manifestation of homophobia. It affirms the need to call the Church to "work for an end to Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579571802576738609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143524105188296352006-03-27T21:35:00.000-08:002006-03-27T21:35:00.000-08:00I agree that the devil is having a good time with ...I agree that the devil is having a good time with all sides here.<BR/><BR/>And Susan has decided to leave the 3 gross posts up to stoke the fire.<BR/><BR/>Onward and upward indeed. What irony.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143505748509497842006-03-27T16:29:00.000-08:002006-03-27T16:29:00.000-08:00Where are these comments from? It's no mystery. Th...Where are these comments from? It's no mystery. These vile comments are Titusonenine unmasked and unmoderated. I've been on "Titus watch" for some time now and have seen how mean and nasty those orthodox can get. On some posts, one wonders how they dare call themselves Christian. They hate gays. They are scared to death of losing their white, male privilege. Oh, they claim to love the sinner andAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143502975671453052006-03-27T15:42:00.000-08:002006-03-27T15:42:00.000-08:00My goodness! What a lot of energy to come back to ...My goodness! What a lot of energy to come back to after a sabbath away from cyber-land! While I am tempted to delete some of the more "polemic" comments at this point I'm erring on leaving them as illustrative of the challenge we face right now in dealing with those who are angry-unto-incivility (which was, ironically and absolutely on the list of "venial sins" when I was growing up in the SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1143485469589300402006-03-27T10:51:00.000-08:002006-03-27T10:51:00.000-08:00Susan--You will know from the administrative tools...Susan--You will know from the administrative tools on your blog where some of the dreadful early comments came from. You know that leaders on every level of the conservative "side" in ECUSA would condemn such comments. <BR/><BR/>While I couldn't disagree more with your/CTB's aims, I'm pretty sure we could have a fair argument over coffee/tea/whatever. <BR/><BR/>I'll look for you in Columbus.<BR/>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com