tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post114545807461244106..comments2024-02-21T03:20:21.898-08:00Comments on An Inch At A Time: Reflections on the Journey: More on the "Spin Cycle"SUSAN RUSSELLhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145936698509860142006-04-24T20:44:00.000-07:002006-04-24T20:44:00.000-07:00Hi, Jeff,Yeah, I realize that in my last post, I s...Hi, Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I realize that in my last post, I sidestepped some of your issues (which you reiterated and clarified after my last post) due to time. Books have been written dealing with your topics for discussion. I'll do my best to summarize the orthodox POV in a few short paragraphs.<BR/><BR/>First, it might surprise you to know that those of us on the orthodox end do not see all Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145896799655827392006-04-24T09:39:00.000-07:002006-04-24T09:39:00.000-07:00Saying bishops are "utterly terrified'" is what we...Saying bishops are "utterly terrified'" is what we used to call just a little bit of hyperbole, esp. seeing as how the bishops mentioned in their statements, provide clear positions for their acitons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145848947612325812006-04-23T20:22:00.000-07:002006-04-23T20:22:00.000-07:00If, as several posters here assert repeatedly, the...If, as several posters here assert repeatedly, the overwhelming majority of pewsitters in ECUSA are strongly, nay rabidly, in favor of Integrity's agenda for the church, why are so many of our bishops utterly terrified?<BR/><BR/>Dennis Canon letters have gone out in North Carolina and San Diego, and will soon probably be sent in many other diocese; +Montana and others are desperate to keep the Craig Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08624767388702032189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145815785033246932006-04-23T11:09:00.000-07:002006-04-23T11:09:00.000-07:00Jeff: Again, somebody in the AAC has taken it upon...Jeff: Again, somebody in the AAC has taken it upon themselves to decide what Scripture is important.<BR/><BR/>Jeff, the AAC has not done this, the Anglican Communion has through the four sources that I have referenced.<BR/><BR/>Jeff: Tony, on your point of the Anglican Communion setting theology for all of its member provinces-- I don't think that is the intent.<BR/><BR/>Jeff, you're right - the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145708183369188902006-04-22T05:16:00.000-07:002006-04-22T05:16:00.000-07:00RMF: TEC is certainly not orthodox in the eyes of ...RMF: TEC is certainly not orthodox in the eyes of the RCC or the Eastern Orthodox. We may be orthodox to the UCC and the Unitarians, but do we really want to be another dying Protestant sect?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145708064582604082006-04-22T05:14:00.000-07:002006-04-22T05:14:00.000-07:00Jeff, one of the principles of the church is that ...Jeff, one of the principles of the church is that the mind of the Spirit is discerned by the whole church - not just one part (like the Arians, for example). The closest that we come to the whole church is Lambeth, which said that ecusa should not act as it did. As you know, all 4 instruments of unity said the same thing. GC03 acted as a schismatic body.<BR/><BR/>Second, as has been said, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145703463659979072006-04-22T03:57:00.000-07:002006-04-22T03:57:00.000-07:00TEC is orthodox--those who have a beef are saying ...TEC is orthodox--those who have a beef are saying it's not, and then call themselves orthodox and say those who don't agree with them, are not orthodox.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145698765459544322006-04-22T02:39:00.000-07:002006-04-22T02:39:00.000-07:00Looks like there's plenty of spin in the AAC respo...Looks like there's plenty of spin in the AAC response, although what Rev. Susan points to isn't the clearest case.<BR/><BR/>To start off, in the introduction they say that the AC is expecting us to put a moratorium on ordaining gay and lesbian people, although this claim doesn't appear anywhere in the Windsor Report. On blessings, they entirely drop the word public inspite of its consistant use Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13323740465436735706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145674149689265632006-04-21T19:49:00.000-07:002006-04-21T19:49:00.000-07:00Jeff,No, I think that all of us on the orthodox en...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>No, I think that all of us on the orthodox end are perfectly aware that the majority of bishops and delegates at GC '03 voted the way that they did. It IS a good question as to whether those votes represent the mind of the majority of ECUSA, but as I said before, the whole majority/minority angle distracts from the real issue. We're dealing with the church of Jesus Christ, not a Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145642766522316412006-04-21T11:06:00.000-07:002006-04-21T11:06:00.000-07:00rmf, your first post needed two corrections. Here ...rmf, your first post needed two corrections. Here is a more accurate post:<BR/><BR/>The vast majority of the Anglican Communion, does not agree with the small rebellious group. We just don't.<BR/><BR/>They have their say over and over and at the end of the day, not many in our Church beyond their small group have been persuaded.<BR/><BR/>This is the reality. <BR/><BR/>The rest of us have not beenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145636981036978522006-04-21T09:29:00.000-07:002006-04-21T09:29:00.000-07:00Hiram wrote: "As things look today, I will probabl...Hiram wrote:<BR/><BR/> "As things look today, I will probably stop being an active Episcopalian sometime between this summer and the summer of Lambeth (08). I am a tither, and I will be missed, for that alone, if nothing else. "<BR/><BR/>That pretty much sums up my own feelings should the church go in a direction which made him comfortable. We've come to a fork in the road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145633376549718982006-04-21T08:29:00.000-07:002006-04-21T08:29:00.000-07:00I see twice a comment about a small minority posit...I see twice a comment about a small minority position, as if GC03 is really representative of a vast majority of ecusa. This assertion has certainly not been proved by any poll that I have seen. Could the asserter please state on what basis this claim is being made?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145571446331683742006-04-20T15:17:00.000-07:002006-04-20T15:17:00.000-07:00Actually, rmf, I choose to post based on whether I...Actually, rmf, I choose to post based on whether I think that something requires a response, not based on who is in either the minority or majority. (I could care less about that.) In this case, it was Rev. Susan's claim that the AAC was lying that motivated my post. <BR/><BR/>When it comes to caring about the church, it really doesn't matter whether you're in the majority or minority, because Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145570387426666392006-04-20T14:59:00.000-07:002006-04-20T14:59:00.000-07:00Q.E.D.Q.E.D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145568421515649612006-04-20T14:27:00.000-07:002006-04-20T14:27:00.000-07:00rmf, you've really nailed it. So, when are you go...rmf, you've really nailed it. So, when are you going to stop with the anger and the threats?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145566417689437032006-04-20T13:53:00.000-07:002006-04-20T13:53:00.000-07:00Abp Eames is looking through rose-colored glasses....Abp Eames is looking through rose-colored glasses. His is not an official voice, and he certainly does not speak for those who believe that consecrating Robinson as bishop was wrong.<BR/><BR/>As for who is majority and minority, it is difficult to say, since there is a murky middle who may be, on the one hand, disgusted by the events of GC 03, but who have not said much because it happened in aAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145562645545034952006-04-20T12:50:00.000-07:002006-04-20T12:50:00.000-07:00Interesting how we see in this short comment threa...Interesting how we see in this short comment thread, the dissenting, very minority opinion in our Church, demanding of a majority position that they cannot persuade, that even if they are not persuaded, they had better do what the minority in the church demand.<BR/><BR/>They have given up trying to persuade and now rely mainly, indeed only, on threats, anger and demands.<BR/><BR/>I don't think Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145560358162583412006-04-20T12:12:00.000-07:002006-04-20T12:12:00.000-07:00"As a careful reader would get from the spliced ci..."As a careful reader would get from the spliced citation, the report does NOT say that any special caution needs to be exercised with respect to candidates for bishop 'living in a same gender union'; it says that we need to exercise caution with respect to ANY 'manner of life' presenting a challenge."<BR/><BR/>Oh, sure, Susan, that's what started all of this; that's why we have a Windsor Report Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145555972302978952006-04-20T10:59:00.000-07:002006-04-20T10:59:00.000-07:00I think Chip gets straight to the point Susan. Yo...I think Chip gets straight to the point Susan. You complain here that the AAC is spinning, but isn't that what ECUSA is doing? What matters here is the truth and it seems unusual that we keep hearing about "listening" when the truth is we have heard each other and we do not and cannot agree. We have irreconcilable differences. Listening won't change the facts. Someone is going to have to sayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145553917761732572006-04-20T10:25:00.000-07:002006-04-20T10:25:00.000-07:00Rev. Susan,Help me out. What am I missing here?"Pu...Rev. Susan,<BR/><BR/>Help me out. What am I missing here?<BR/><BR/>"Putting quotes around language not contained in a resolution and representing it as part of the recommendation of the Commission is intentionally misleading."<BR/><BR/>Where has the AAC done this in the text that you cite? You can find "living in a same gender union" in both paragraph 51 and the "Resolved" paragraph of A161, Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145545401890112422006-04-20T08:03:00.000-07:002006-04-20T08:03:00.000-07:00"How is an internet post accusing the AAC of lying..."How is an internet post accusing the AAC of lying in any way within the spirit of the Living Church's editorial?"<BR/><BR/>Because they did. Because putting quotes around language not contained in a resolution and representing it as part of the recommendation of the Commission is intentionally misleading and does not rise to the high standard of respectful discourse in disagreement we should SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145543050438298052006-04-20T07:24:00.000-07:002006-04-20T07:24:00.000-07:00Rev Susan,You write a lengthy post accusing the AA...Rev Susan,<BR/>You write a lengthy post accusing the AAC of lying, and then conclude with "the living church got it right, we should be nicer to each other." <BR/><BR/>How is an internet post accusing the AAC of lying in any way within the spirit of the Living Church's editorial?<BR/><BR/>Physician, heal thyself!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145535263083615832006-04-20T05:14:00.000-07:002006-04-20T05:14:00.000-07:00The vast majority of the Episcopal Church, does no...The vast majority of the Episcopal Church, does not agree with the small rebellious group. We just don't. <BR/><BR/>They have their say over and over and at the end of the day, not many in our Church beyond their small group have been persuaded.<BR/><BR/>This is the reality. <BR/><BR/>The rest of us have not been persuaded that the Church should become what they've been saying it should be.<BR/><Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145511943049084972006-04-19T22:45:00.000-07:002006-04-19T22:45:00.000-07:00With all due respect, who's doing the spinning her...With all due respect, who's doing the spinning here, Rev. Susan?<BR/><BR/>The AAC communique cites both paragraph 51 and resolution A161. Here's paragraph 51: "We acknowledge and regret that by action and inaction, we contributed to strains on communion and 'caused deep offense to many faithful Anglican Christians' as we consented to the consecration of a bishop living openly in a same-gender Chip Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055858187692162039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-1145493871601835752006-04-19T17:44:00.000-07:002006-04-19T17:44:00.000-07:00As a priest I know was bold to say...."When you cl...As a priest I know was bold to say...."When you claim to have the Absolute Truth, no other kind of truth seems to matter."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com