tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post6923461082456955007..comments2024-02-21T03:20:21.898-08:00Comments on An Inch At A Time: Reflections on the Journey: Marriage for All at All Saints ChurchSUSAN RUSSELLhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-56176855902253834582008-05-27T06:33:00.000-07:002008-05-27T06:33:00.000-07:00Given that California same-sex couples can get all...Given that California same-sex couples can get all the legal protection of marriage by going through a civil marriage ceremony, “justice” would not seem to require California’s TEC clergy to violate the church’s marriage canon by officiating at the weddings.D. C. Toedthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15327528545070109460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-61906534179522964042008-05-24T19:44:00.000-07:002008-05-24T19:44:00.000-07:00"By the way, does anyone really think that all Ros..."By the way, does anyone really think that all Rosa Parks was doing was “defying a local law that was in violation of law that was supreme to it?”"<BR/><BR/>Thank you, uffda51! Though I am hesitant (as expressed above) about All Saints' choice, your comment does put things into perspective for me. I guess it could be viewed that All Saints' is defying a "local" law that is in violation of a lawSuzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-74779414544705961042008-05-24T15:34:00.000-07:002008-05-24T15:34:00.000-07:00I am delighted by the California decision and the ...I am delighted by the California decision and the stand taken by All Saints Church.<BR/><BR/>I can only wonder why the idea that women are equal to men and gays are equal to straights is so offensive to some Christians that they feel these simple truths are being crammed down their throats. Progress, according to these folks, should be resisted because we need to do things the way they’ve always uffda51https://www.blogger.com/profile/11395027089123943228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-78260239874929413092008-05-24T14:41:00.000-07:002008-05-24T14:41:00.000-07:00david ... would you email me at president@integrit...david ... would you email me at president@integrityusa.org, please? thanks! susanSUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-39825516742134921192008-05-24T09:46:00.000-07:002008-05-24T09:46:00.000-07:00I was there and involved when the issue was civil ...I was there and involved when the issue was civil rights.<BR/><BR/>One of the rules for non-violent protest was that yes, we would break the laws. Yes we would take the resulting legal actions to appellate courts and argue that the law was inoperative because it was both immoral and unconstitutional. But(!) we recognized that the courts might not agree and accepted the chance that we might pay JimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-65311974058164367282008-05-23T15:42:00.000-07:002008-05-23T15:42:00.000-07:00PS for Ron ... Actually I do -- think that gay and...PS for Ron ... Actually I do -- think that gay and lesbian families are "worthy" of being compared with Rosa Parks. And so did the California Supreme Court. (Ergo the May 15th decision)SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-50231940042783051002008-05-23T15:17:00.000-07:002008-05-23T15:17:00.000-07:00Writing from a certain distance - Montreal- the on...Writing from a certain distance - Montreal- the only lump I'm aware of is in my throat, and its of joy and sheer wonder- at the clear-sighted grace and courage of the folks at All Saints Passadena.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is, some times after long prayer, much study and fellowship one simply has to gird up one's loins, trust in God and step forward in faith- into the new day our lovng God has David@Montrealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08447479118332347163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-14105504078254480232008-05-23T14:55:00.000-07:002008-05-23T14:55:00.000-07:00RonF ... "They weren't priests until their ordinat...RonF ... "They weren't priests until their ordinations were accepted by GC ..."<BR/><BR/>Really? So the sacramental efficacy of the apostolic succession in the laying on of hands by a bishop was contingent on General Convention?<BR/><BR/>Now THAT'S a revisionist postion that makes anything we've proposed pale in comparison. It makes me feel quite the traditionalist!SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-54735728468615863192008-05-23T14:15:00.000-07:002008-05-23T14:15:00.000-07:00Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon 1...<I>Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon 17:5 in conversation with Canon 18:1 we believe that the spirit of those canons transcends the letter of the language describing marriage as a union between a man and a woman in Canon 18:2b.</I><BR/><BR/>Then why didn't you wait for the debate? Instead, your vestry has set themselves up as an authority superior to General Convention, who RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-37691142238382502262008-05-23T12:33:00.000-07:002008-05-23T12:33:00.000-07:00Dear Rev. Russell: I try to stay out of these disc...Dear Rev. Russell:<BR/> I try to stay out of these discussions because I really don't have a dog in the fight. However, Ronf does make a point, one that if I were a current attorney for St. Luke's of the Mountains and the other three Los Angeles churches that are trying to retain property I would use.<BR/> If canons are only subject to the interpretation of individual churches, why then would Jim of L-Townhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941398804273985677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-79523920740363654592008-05-23T11:39:00.000-07:002008-05-23T11:39:00.000-07:00Thank You Susan! Amen!----------------------------...Thank You Susan! Amen!<BR/><BR/>------------------------------<BR/>Please edit as you see fit or if possible - can you send this along to Suzer?<BR/>____________________________<BR/>Suzer said... "if we so chose (though I think we'd just stick with a civil marriage ceremony if it were available to us, for many reasons)." Suzer - I'd like to understand your comment. My partner and I had our "Holy Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16776805214662441928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-29632078308010283702008-05-23T11:14:00.000-07:002008-05-23T11:14:00.000-07:00hiram ... sounds like the same argument the Britis...hiram ... sounds like the same argument the British made in 1776<BR/><BR/>suzer ... I couldn't agree more .. "I would much rather TEC legislate this change first, before churches start doing it on their own." And so would the Philadelphia 11 have preferred the church to have legislated the change first. And if they had not stepped forward to challenge the canons I do not believe they would have SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-55157438332668600162008-05-23T10:24:00.000-07:002008-05-23T10:24:00.000-07:00"Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon ..."Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon 17:5 in conversation with Canon 18:1 we believe that the spirit of those canons transcends the letter of the language describing marriage as a union between a man and a woman in Canon 18:2b"<BR/><BR/>According to the letter of the canons, however, the rector would be liable for presentment if he acts on the policy.<BR/><BR/>When their is selectiveHiramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00845924600039905182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-4210561180490097472008-05-23T10:17:00.000-07:002008-05-23T10:17:00.000-07:00There are times when I would like my church to cha...There are times when I would like my church to charge forward and make change. It would be nice if my partner and I could be married in TEC, if we so chose (though I think we'd just stick with a civil marriage ceremony if it were available to us, for many reasons).<BR/><BR/>But I have to say that even though I am all for full inclusivity (obviously), the quick actions of All Saints Pasadena to Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-63706708548566335442008-05-23T08:57:00.000-07:002008-05-23T08:57:00.000-07:00I knew we could count on you!:-)I knew we could count on you!<BR/><BR/>:-)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17547673802645392683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-61543343838269179602008-05-23T08:44:00.000-07:002008-05-23T08:44:00.000-07:00Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon 1...Although it's certainly debatable, reading Canon 17:5 in conversation with Canon 18:1 we believe that the spirit of those canons transcends the letter of the language describing marriage as a union between a man and a woman in Canon 18:2b. And we'll be suggesting fixing that in Anaheim.<BR/> <BR/>It's arguable that the 1976 approval of the ordination of women wouldn't have happened without 1974 SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-46802550850927842692008-05-23T08:02:00.000-07:002008-05-23T08:02:00.000-07:00Since you invoke the Canons, let's take a look at ...Since you invoke the Canons, let's take a look at them.<BR/><BR/>CANON 18: Of the Solemnization of Holy Matrimony<BR/><BR/>Sec. 1. Every Member of the Clergy of this Church shall conform to the laws of the State governing the creation of the civil status of marriage, and also to the laws of this Church governing the solemnization of Holy Matrimony.<BR/><BR/>Sec. 2. Before solemnizing a marriage RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-88082875856793539662008-05-23T05:55:00.000-07:002008-05-23T05:55:00.000-07:00Congratulations to all involved and thank you, tha...Congratulations to all involved and thank you, thank you, thank you for setting the pace. If only the Churches here in the UK could act with such integrity and bravery.Philiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05160216144709233471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-10012570938081657582008-05-22T18:14:00.000-07:002008-05-22T18:14:00.000-07:00WOW! What a great message (from both the Bishop an...WOW! What a great message (from both the Bishop and the Vestry)! These responses make much more sense than the mess we were in here in Massachusetts back in 2004. Good to see what a difference four years makes!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16776805214662441928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21609676.post-60825491699893268302008-05-22T17:18:00.000-07:002008-05-22T17:18:00.000-07:00I think this is wonderful, but how will this play ...I think this is wonderful, but how will this play out within the greater framework of The Episcopal Church?<BR/><BR/>Does this mean that the priests at All Saints will santify same-sex marriages using the ritual as laid out in The Book of Common Prayer and not perform the current "blessings?"Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049717236296164547noreply@blogger.com