Friday, March 18, 2011

And the arc continues to bend ...

This just in from ABC.News:
Support for Gay Marriage Reaches a Milestone
More Than Half of Americans Say Gay Marriage Should Be Legal

More than half of Americans say it should be legal for gays and lesbians to marry, a first in nearly a decade of polls by ABC News and The Washington Post.

This milestone result caps a dramatic, long-term shift in public attitudes. From a low of 32 percent in a 2004 survey of registered voters, support for gay marriage has grown to 53 percent today. Forty-four percent are opposed, down 18 points from that 2004 survey.
Interesting data to find in my "inbox" as we finish four final preparations here in Atlanta and gear up to to begin the Church-wide Cosultation on same-gender blessings. Stay tuned ... either to this blog or literally "tuned" to the live webscast coming from the Nat'l Church website.


IT said...

I get such a kick out of seeing me here....I hope I can retire that sign soon.

Nicole Porter said...

You can now. Stop protesting for something that will never have enough support and that enough of the country would never allow. Yes,even in 2011.

JCF said...

Cognitive dissonance, thy name is Martin T.

[Your sign is so artfully-constructed, IT. I'm getting that "Tobias Haller Feeling" again: must you be good at EVERYTHING? ;-X]

Nicole Porter said...



Deborah said...

"Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

IT said...

@JCF: I can achieve adequacy, but don't have real talent at anything. The sign is good enough, but no where near the astonishing league of the talented Rev. Haller.

LGMarshall said...

I imagine that you will have your way, one day soon, but beating down the weaker members of The Body of Christ and brainwashing American Culture, is no great feat.

but who knows, you may be rebuked by a donkey....

"They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes , reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning, they seduce the undstable; they are experts in greed -- an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor [wicked sorcerer], who loved the wages of wickedness,,. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey -- a beast without speech -- who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness."

IT said...

Does anyone else notice that as the inexorable progress towards equality and human rights occurs, that Susan's regular trolls and nay-sayers become more strident and cruel in what they say?

At some level I feel sorry for them, as they are like a small child shrieking in fear and kicking out to hurt those around them.

At another level, i think of them like the angry old white folks who swear President Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, and who resent their loss of "Specialness", otherwise known as White Privilege. After all, 20% of people in this country still oppose inter-racial marriage.

But I have to say, they are making the comments here really toxic in their relentless and hurtful attacks.

Which is obviously their goal.

IT said...

For our trolls, did you actually say this on Ash Weds?

For all false judgements,for uncharitable thoughts toward our neighbors, and for our prejudice and contempt toward those who differ from us
Accept out repentence Lord.

BCP p268

Nicole Porter said...

Yes IT, I did. It says nothing about turning a blind eye to sin and that I must call what I know to be bad..good. That line and the clause in the baptismal covenant that you guys love to quote about respecting dignity, is not a clause to shield you from being called out. It's not, and it never will be. Stop pretending that it is.

JCF said...

At some level I feel sorry for them, as they are like a small child shrieking in fear and kicking out to hurt those around them.

That's my priciple response (y'know, after the first gut-level "Well, f@ck you too!" reaction. My gut doesn't even TRY to practice Christian charity---but I generally have a fairly good handle on it. Usually. ;-/)

I just feel sorry for them. Wish I could ease their pain, their all-consuming FEARS. Maybe Time will heal? At any rate, MartinT and LGM have made it clear they won't accept the good will I offer, so all I can do is pray for them.

My RIP friend Cath was a phenomenal example of Straight-But-Not-Narrow, so now that she's "graduated to the larger life", I'm going to ask her for some intercessions...

Nicole Porter said...

I feel sorry for you too, more so your immortal soul than anything.

IT said...



Just Me said...

@ Martin & LG; I hear your frustration and I understand the sense of betrayal. All I can offer is this; be sure to not make the church another idol. The bottom line is that AC doesn't exist anymore (and hasn't for quite some time). As far as TEC goes; the battle is over. Screaming is only self-destructive at this point. For you, it is not a question anymore on how to "save" or change direction of TEC; you must learn how to live faithfully in these days and times in which we live.
If you really do read the Word with the eyes and ears you claim you have, then you already know what to expect and how to respond.

Nicole Porter said...

Just Me,
I can't argue with you there. It has been extremely painful. The way that I get looked at in my own parish, a few of "them" glare at me like I have a Klansman outfit on because I don't fall in ranks. It hurts like hell. I'm not the enemy here.

IT said...

Then who IS the enemy? Does there have to be one?

These are the words you use towards LGBT Episcopalians and their place in the church, harvested from just a couple of threads here:

•people like you
•mad as hell
•people let Satan take over

Look at those words. Those are words intended to do violence--emotional and spiritual violence. You admit yourself you won't say such things face to face to anyone in your own parish, but anonymity of the internet allows you to lash out with the very definite aim to hurt other people.

Those are words that are uncharitable, prejudiced, and full of contempt. Yet you feel justified in using them.

You say over and over again that "They" should have left, that they are contaminating your church and ruining it for you, and you seethe with self-righteous anger, and contempt for the people here.

Anger like this is ultimately more damaging and degrading to you, than to those at whom you direct it. I think you should really ask yourself why you come here, where you feed this anger and try to hurt people with it.

And perhaps you should explain how your behavior conforms to Christian ideals of "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Because there is no love in what you do here....only anger, and pain.

JCF said...

MartinT, I just want to {hug} you.

Not because you need some special mind-changing Hug from a Queer.

But you just need a hug...from Somebody. Anybody. You're clearly hug-deficient. (It's curable!)

Nicole Porter said...

Sin is the enemy, and those that bathe in it like soap and water. The only reason I don't say these things face to face is because none of them are foolish enough to ask me my opinion on the subject. The fact that I don't bother socially with them says enough don't you think? Don't give me that "spiritual/emotional violence" tripe. I can't do any harm to anyone here, you got what you wanted and claim to deserve. Sin wins out, for now.

Nicole Porter said...

Don't. Start.

IT said...

I can't do any harm to anyone here

You've been told over and over that the language you are using DOES do harm -- violence of a sort which you dismiss as "tripe". Your words are full of contempt and revulsion, and in tone come perilously close to actual hatred.

I think you need a therapist, or a priest, or maybe both, to deal with your anger issues towards the people here.

Finally, you refuse to tell us why you come here to spew the same bile over and over. You ignore that question entirely.

What do you hope to accomplish?

I suspect the answer is, "to hurt them as much as they've hurt me." But you can tell us whether that's true or not.

Nicole Porter said...

Just to make sure before I continue, did you pay attention to my answers that I have given? I just want to know that you didn't skim over anything. About the tripe, I know what I've been "told", believe me I do. I just think it's a bunch of BS. That's my conclusion. Why am I here?? Same reason you are, to share your opinions,duh. Get over yourself IT, I might believe that you live an immoral life but at the end of the day your kind has effectively succeeded in the coup of TEC. So don't whine about my opinions. You got what you wanted didn't have no reason to complain! One more thing, there is no need for you to worry about what I need. I assure you, you are in greater need than I'll ever be. Did I cover everything that time or no?

uffda51 said...

Martin and LG, you are clearly outraged by what you see as a lack of morality within TEC. You have told us so in countless posts. One can only imagine the numerous emails your outrage caused you to send to the Whitehouse when the Bush Administration authorized torture. Where do you find the time?

By the way, not only are “any sexual relations outside of marriage (1man+ 1 woman) NOT expressly forbidden in Scripture,” they are, in fact, endorsed.

Exodus 21:10 - “If a man takes a second wife, he must continue to give his first wife the same amount of food and clothing and the same rights that she had before.”

Are the literalists saying that the laws of ancient Israel no longer apply to 21st century Americans?

Just out of curiosity, Martin and LG, why do the biblical literalists believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? Who told them this, and why do they find this credible?

I’m not calling your belief system “crap,” “a joke,” and “BS,” to borrow Martin’s language. I’m trying to understand.

I find the Human Genome Project and the Hubble Telescope credible at helping to explain the history of humanity and the universe. The Creation Museum in Kentucky and the Jesus theme park in Orlando, Florida, not so much.

MarkBrunson said...

He's here because Susan continues to allow it.

IT said...

When people tell MartinT his words are hurtful, this is his response:

About the tripe, I know what I've been "told", believe me I do. I just think it's a bunch of BS.

But Martin's hurt apparently demands respect. Quite a selective blindness there.

Since his language, as I have documented, is deliberately injurious, and is becoming more so, he clearly has no interest in even minimal courtesy to other people. How very "Christian" of him.


For someone who claims to follow Christ's teaching, he seems to miss some fundamental bits. Like the fact that agree or not, even LGBT Episcopalians and their supporters are his brothers and sisters and deserving of his love.

Or this:

‘But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister,* you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult* a brother or sister,* you will be liable to the council; and if you say, “You fool”, you will be liable to the hell* of fire.

(Matthew 5:22-23)

I guess he missed that too, as well as the hypocrisy of repenting for uncharitable thoughts toward our neighbors, and for our prejudice and contempt toward those who differ from us in the Ash Wednesday liturgy, as I quoted above.

In any case, I would encourage lurkers here, who are probably sufficiently battered in their real life churches, to stop reading these insults.

There are plenty of blogs that manage discussion respectfully, even with those of opposite ideas, without continued and needless ad hominem attacks.

Just Me, for example, posts here and clearly disagrees frequently, but generally manages to do it without insulting people.

Susan chooses to give MartinT free rein for his bile. I'm not in favor of censorship, generally, but the cost is that these comment threads are now hijacked by LGM and MartinT, as they repeat and repeat their same tired arguments.

Most people do not agree with them and they are mad as hell that they've lost. So they want to hurt us as much as they can.

We need to stop feeding their anger, and go somewhere else till they burn themselves out.

I'm done here.


I think you've hit the nail on the head, IT.

There is -- in fact -- a distinct difference between dialogue and diatribe ... as I noted in a post a few weeks ago. And at this point I think it's not healthy for the diaologue on this blog OR for the "drive-by diatribers" to keep that pattern going.

So I hearby declare a moratorium on venom and vitriol -- recognizing that there are those who will hear that as "failing to listen to 'the other side.'"

But here's the deal: after a decade or two in the trenches on this work, I guarantee you there isn't a single one of the arguments out there I haven't already heard. And I'm ready for us to move onto some new territory.

If you want to be part of that conversation, then welcome aboard. If not, go in peace.

danielj said...

So I hearby declare a moratorium on venom and vitriol

Susan+ yes!! thank you!!
I know this means that perhaps you will have to read and delete some nasty comments for a while, God's grace to you on that.

But i am glad to finally see an end to all this...very toxic stuff and not Kingdom building in the slightest.
blessings danielj

Just Me said...

Wait.. what? Only "generally"? Let me be clear; if I have said anything that was received as insulting, I sincerely do apologize and promise it was not done intentionally.

I second (or is it third?) props on the venom moratorium.

IT said...

Sorry @JustMe, poor word choice.

I used "generally" meaning "widely" not in the sense of "usually" or implying exceptions. You do a good job of being courteous. Besides your avatar is cute, suggesting you have a sense of humor.

I am glad to see the moratorium. I have labored pretty hard (sometimes with less success than others, admittedly) not to repay like with like on the insults, but my forbearance is stretched pretty thin and in many cases recently, I have felt like a direct target.

MarkBrunson said...

As noted, I appreciate your decision, Susan.

Looking at the "voice" in my own comment, let me clarify I wasn't criticizing you, but making clear to a certain poster that he is only here under sufferance and might want to reconsider his ever-downward spiral of denigration and abuse, which is what got him preemptively banned from my blog, when he raged in.

MarkBrunson said...

I would also note that, as further approbation for the wise decision for moratorium, the constant and pervasive attacks from those like the ones named, their utter contempt and bile, has led me, and those of deep emotion like me, to make a knee-jerk response that might have preempted actual conversation with honest differers-in-opinion like JustMe, who has always been a gentleperson - to me, at least! :D

Just Me said...

Ahh ~ ok. Well in that case; I take my apology back! :p j/k

Just Me said...

Awww ~ now see; I'm feelin' the love =)

It's all good Mark. I have a good way of telling when emotions are running high.

For the most part, I'm a tough feather to ruffle. In my lifetime I've endured abuse, I battled addictions, I've been homeless (twice), I lost a child and I get to endure a chronic pain condition. God gifted me with a sense of humor and a tenacious drive to soar like an eagle.